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Greenleaf Recap Season 5 Episode 1: The First Day…

Hello World,

Y’all, as the opening episode for Season 5 of OWN’s Greenleaf just ended minutes ago, my mouth is still agape…So much to think about for this new season, but I won’t waste another minute considering the possibilities because I need to get on with writing this Greenleaf Recap Season 5 Episode 1: The First Day…

First Time I Met the Blues…

Y’all it’s a sad day. Bishop is readying himself to say goodbye to Calvary now that Harmony & Hope Ministries is going to demolish the building. Dressed in all black everything, he is alone in the sanctuary and goes up to the glass podium at front where he surveys the expanse of the empty sanctuary. It’s undoubtedly a majestic space. Too bad it will be turned into rubble. Grace, who is also dressed in black, shows up at his side and lays her head on his shoulder. They eventually walk down the stairs of the stage together. They’re wearing black, but they’re most definitely blue.

In the next scene, they are outside the church where a Harmony & Hope journalist is reporting on the progress of the demolition. As Bishop and Grace watch, posters with Bishop’s image on them are thrown into a dumpster as if trash is simply being thrown away. Grace says to her father, “Why did you make us come here? Doesn’t that break your heart?” At first, he eloquently disagrees with Grace until a cross structure is thrown into the back of a truck with absolutely no grace at all. “That makes me sad,” Bishop says. “To see a cross handled like that. Maybe you’re right. Maybe this was a mistake. Let’s go.” (Did y’all see the cardboard cutout of Bishop though? That was kind of funny.)

Lady Mae, who is at the Greenleaf estate, is handling her blues in another way. She is fasting. Marisol the maid attempts to give her some sustenance. “At least, let me make you some tea,” she says to her. But Lady Mae refuses. Marisol points out that she could be fasting for at least 40 days regarding this matter. Of course, Lady Mae has a quip for that. “Jesus saved the whole human race in 40 days,” she points out. Then Charity shows up, and of course, she has more to say. She calls her daughter “Little Miss Benedictine Arnold” and tells her she is a “traitor to her whole family.” Wow. She’s right though…

And then Aaron, Grace’s half-brother, shows up. Now that the truth of Grace’s parentage has been revealed, she seems to be at peace with all that the revelation entailed. In other words, she is absolutely fine with Aaron the attorney now when before his presence used to perturb her. He tells her that he is at the estate to see Grace but until she shows up, the two talk. She tells him that she is fasting to get a sign from God regarding what the Greenleafs should do about the fact that H&H is demolishing the church. And if you remember from the final episode of Season 4, Lady Mae has agreed to lead the church along with Bob Whitmore as Bob requested. However, it seems that Lady Mae only agreed to Bob’s proposition to buy some time to hear from the Lord about what to try next. And the fast seems to be working but not in the way that was expected. She tells Aaron, “…But right now, I don’t even want that old church back.” With a quizzical look on his face, Aaron says, “Is the fast making you loopy?”

Bishop walks in then and addresses Aaron without saying a word Lady Mae. “He’s upset with me about a misconception,” she explains. Grace walks in next, and Aaron tells her he has something to tell her but he thinks A.J. should be there too.

You know who else has the blues? Jacob and Kerissa. In their suite, the two continue to “discuss”the terms of their divorce. Jacob calls Fernando Kerissa’s “Latin Lover” and says he is passing out wills and chlamydia! LOOOOLLLL!!! Kerissa ignores Jacob’s verbal jabs and plainly tells him that if she does not get what she wants in the divorce settlement, the will that somehow implicates the Greenleafs will be made public. Apparently, through the will, it is revealed that Uncle Mac was the executor of the estate and that a botched burglary led to the Greenleafs getting their home.

Speaking of challenged couples, Dante the basketball player and Sophia make plans to get together at his house later in the evening. However, Sophia lets it slip that Nikki, Dante’s former girlfriend, is still staying with Zora at the Greenleaf estate. Obviously, this situation is bound to cause conflict in this new season…

The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face…

The plans to demolish the Calvary building and build the Memphis location of H&H Ministries continues. Inside the Calvary building, Phil DeMars and Charity see each other face to face for the first time during this episode. If you remember from the Season 4 finale episode, he tells Charity that instead of marrying her, he is marrying Bob Whitmore’s daughter Judee. I bet Charity regrets the first time she ever saw his face. He says, “God is good,” and she replies, “All the time.” (Does every churchgoing black person know that phrase?) He tries to figure out if she is going to cause any problems as the plans continue to proceed. A meeting with the deacons and other church leaders is coming up, and they will both need to meet with them. She says, “My family hates me. I have no love life.” Her associate pastor position at H&H is pretty much the only thing she has to look forward to going forward, she says. In other words, she doesn’t plan to make any trouble, but we know that couldn’t be true. Phil says, “I just want us to present a united front.” Charity responds with, “It will definitely be a front.” Bloop….

Back at the Greenleaf estate, Aaron meets with Grace to tell her what is going on regarding her son A.J.’s case. Also, A.J. is at the meeting. Aaron tells them that they no longer have to worry about A.J. turning himself into the authorities. Apparently, the A.J. doppelganger was discovered as the one who has been robbing pharmacies and selling drugs. Sadly, Aaron also reveals, the doppelganger (remember he was in all black in the Season 4 finale) was shot and killed the night before in some type of shoot-out. “The fact that the guy they’re blaming is dead is basically a miracle.” Aaron expects Grace and his nephew to be relieved at least about the fact that A.J. no longer has to turn himself in. But they seem to have mixed emotions…neither sad nor happy…Aaron says, “Should I call the cops and have them reopen the case?”

Speaking of unsolved mysteries, Darius Nash, Grace’s former boyfriend, is back. I thought they made a great couple, and it’s mystery to me why these two couldn’t make it work despite some of the issues they had. For right now, at least, Grace shows up at newspaper office where Darius works for professional reasons. “Tell me you’re not my new editor,” he says. When she tells him,”No,” he responds with, “Thank God.” He tells her that getting over her was difficult, but that doesn’t stop Grace from asking him for a “favor.” They discuss the A.J. doppelganger among other things. Grace wants Darius to use his sources to get to the truth regarding these matters. Just by their similar facial features alone, they would make at least a great looking couple!

Former couple Phil & Charity meet with the deacons and other church leaders and tell them that church members will be meeting in a gym for a year while the new church building is constructed. Charity makes it her business to tell them that they don’t have to fear being sheep without a shepherd although they are being temporarily displaced. She says she will feed them through her sermons. Charity, Charity, Charity. Aine nobody tryin’ to hear you preach. However, she does tell them that she is going to preach a series entitled “The Cornerstones of Faith: The Forgotten History of Black Women in the Church.” It sounds like a great series, but coming from Charity…Anywho, Phil gets a little uncomfortable with all the black stuff since H&H is supposed to be a multiracial church going forward. But Charity tells Phil that when Judee shows up and brings white members with her, she can preach about “vanilla, white Jesus and snow.” However, until then, it’s black like that. LOL. That was funny.

So Darius isn’t the only blast from the past as long we’re discussing couples. Remember Jacob and his mistress Alexa from Season 1? She’s baaack! Jacob goes to see her at her place.  And she doesn’t live alone. “You’ve got a kid?” “Yes,” she says with an attitude, “Her nap time is almost over so what do you need?”

Speaking of needing something, Carlton, Calvary’s choir director, shows up at Charity’s office. As much as he loves Charity, he tells her that he cannot “serve up Pinkberry hymns in a gym.” She starts crying when she realizes that he is quitting! He attempts to console her by saying, “We will still see each other socially.” But Charity says, “I wish I could quit too.”

Back at Alexa’s place, she can’t believe that Jacob is up in her face asking her for something. “You got me fired and thrown out of my church and the next church.” Jacob wants to find out what Alexa knows regarding Mac and this will since she was his assistant. Jacob reveals that he and Kerissa are getting a divorce. “She finally got sick of it,” Alexa says. Jacob says, “You married?” “Do you see a ring?” Alexa responds with as she holds her hand up in the air.

All the while, Jacob is staring at Alexa’s daughter, who is clearly biracial. Alexa finally addresses what Jacob is scared to ask. “Is she yours?” she says. “I would have never kept her if she had been yours.” Ouch. But I don’t believe her. (I guess we will find out more later.) In the mean time, Alexa does reveal that Mac kept a storage locker where Jacob can probably find out more information about this mysterious will. He then apologizes for the way things ended between the two. Obviously, Jacob will being seeing more of Alexa’s face as this season continues.

In the next scene, we see A.J.’s face. He is clearly troubled as he keeps throwing a small ball to the wall and back I guess to get rid of his nervous energy. Grace comes into her suite and can tell that A.J. is agitated. He says, “I did it, and we both know that I did it.” But Grace tries to convince him that his guilt doesn’t matter anymore. “No one knows who this kid is, and for whatever reason, it’s over. You’re free, and this guy paid the price.” At this point, I could not help but think of the sacrifice that Jesus made when He died on the cross. We are the sinners, but yet He paid for our sins with his death. Jesus’ sacrifice leads me to a theory about A.J.’s doppelganger that I will reveal later. Keep reading…

Grace finally says, “You’re free. I cannot pretend that I’m not incredibly happy about that.” Remember she gave up her position at Calvary to ensure that Phil DeMars didn’t tell that she made up an alibi for A.J. so this A.J. doppelganger seems like a blessing from God to her…even if somewhere inside of her, she’s not completely at peace either…

In another part of the house, Bishop meets with his former assistant Karine, her grandmother Clara and Misty, another woman in the church, about what is happening to Calvary. Apparently, they didn’t realize that they are going to be displaced for a year while the new H&H building is being constructed…That’s how the devil works. You think you’re signing up for one thing, and it’s only later when your decision can’t be undecided that you realize that there is a catch…

Speaking of someone else who is likely not a catch…at least Sophia’s catch…She shows up at Dante’s house for their planned evening, but his almost ex Nikki is there. Dante tells her what’s going on, and it’s clear that their relationships is not quite over. He offers to call her when Nikki leaves. She says, “I’m hurt, but I’m not mad.” Oh Sophia. And she is clearly no longer the saved and sanctified church girl as her back is all out in her outfit…

First Love…

Obviously, it’s good that Sophia’s plans are aren’t coming together as Grace is making dinner reservations for her and her children to celebrate. While she tries to make the reservation, however, Darius calls and tells her he knows why Bob Whitmore even came to Memphis in the first place…

Bishop, however, seems to not be worrying about Bob Whitmore anymore and you will know why soon. Marisol told Bishop about Lady Mae’s fast and what she wants to do – look for a new tactic to get the Whitmores to leave Calvary alone and a sign from God about how to proceed. So now that he knows that Lady Mae did not truly align herself with Bob, he wants to get aligned with her again. He goes to her and tells her about his meeting with the women from Calvary and how felt when he saw Calvary’s cross just being tossed in a truck like random trash.

 

He says they need to forego a “master plan” and instead, start a “day to day journey” toward a “new church.” And he says, he wants her to helm the church with him as the “sheep” still need shepherds, and her last “A Day With Lady Mae” showed him he had a powerful preacher in his helpmeet. He tells her the first thing they have to do to start this new journey is to get remarried in City Hall! “How’s that for a sign?” he says with a grin. Lady Mae says, “Are you crazy?” Bishop responds with, “At my age, the word is demented.” Awww…

So Bishop isn’t the only one pining away for lost love…I guess…In his swanky and contemporary digs, Phil stares at a picture of Charity…As if on cue, she shows up and Phil attempts to hide the picture of her so that she doesn’t realize that she has been on his mind…She attempts to give him his engagement ring back, but he tells her to keep it. He also tells her that he will always love her. Charity is rightfully confused and says she doesn’t know how he feels about anything much less her. “I don’t know how you feel about oxygen.” She concludes that he must at least like oxygen since he’s breathing, but other than that, she can come to no conclusions. Finally, Bob reveals why he has to marry Judee. If he doesn’t, Bob will not allow him to lead the new church, he reveals to her.. “I’ve been working for this for 20 years.”

In the mean time, Grace has arrived at the newspaper office and Darius reveals what he knows about Bob. The Phoenix, Arizona resident bought a home in Memphis roughly a year ago although he has yet to move in. Additionally, he has made donations to several local charities. Apparently, Bob, who is a Republican, is interested in running for a Senate seat. He needs to establish his residency and a reputation as a giver. And a multicultural church led by H&H would convince potential voters that he is for everyone…Hmm…But Grace thinks it’s too late to use this information to stop the demolition of Calvary, but Darius says to Grace, “Have a little faith.” So is Darius returning to his Christian roots? If I’m remembering correctly, I think he left the church due to church hurt…Saints, help me out here…

But before the two can put their heads together to work out a plan to overthrow the Whitmores, Grace gets a text that she has been invited to a wedding. And when she goes back to the Greenleaf estate, she realizes that all of her family has gathered there for this wedding. Bishop tells them that he and Lady Mae are heading to City Hall, and they are invited to come along (even Charity) in a caravan of vehicles from the estate. In his joy, Bishop tells Zora that he wants their wedding on Instacart…LOL…He meant Instagram…And Zora fixes her mouth to call her cousin a “skank.” As if she can talk…

But in all of the hubbub, one person is missing: A.J. Grace goes up to her suite and cannot find him. However, a bathroom door is locked, and she suspects he is in there. When she frantically calls his name, and he doesn’t respond, she slams against the door until it comes open. To her shock, there is A.J. on the ground. He is clearly dead or nearly dead as he slit his wrists I think…That was a jarring scene, right? How very sad…

Well, I have a theory about this. As I said before, what this A.J. doppelganger did for A.J. reminds me of what Jesus did for all of us. Judas Iscariot from the Bible felt so guilty about betraying Jesus that he later killed himself. I think that the A.J. doppelganger was the real A.J. and somehow the real A.J. told the fake one what happened to him and the fake one assumed the real one’s identity. Maybe they were in jail together at one point. And when the real A.J. was killed, it was too much for the fake A.J. to handle and so he committed suicide. How else did the A.J. doppelganger know Grace’s name when he “wandered” onto the Greenleaf estate?

Do you have a theory?!

At any rate, and I say this every season…but’s true every season…this is gonna be an exciting season for sure…

Thank you sooo much for reading my Greenleaf Recap Season 5 Episode 1: The First Day… and my other recaps so far. If you would like to keep up with OWN’s “Greenleaf,” and my recaps, please click on this link to subscribe to my blog 🙂!

Any thoughts?

 

 

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Join Me Tomorrow on Twitter Live at Our Own Write’s Virtual Book Fair!!!

I Will Be Reading an Excerpt of My Debut Novel 'Destination Wedding'

Hello World,

So as the world is still navigating the COVID-19 pandemic, I’m reasonably sure that every industry has been affected in some way. One industry that has definitely been negatively impacted is the book publishing industry. Authors typically are able to promote their work in person at various book fairs, festivals, signings and other book-related events throughout the country and the world. Although I’m just a debut novelist as the author of Destination Wedding, I, too, was scheduled for various appearances that have now been cancelled. (Don’t cry for me Argentina though. There are worse things to be upset about but…I’m just sayin’…)

But thankfully, one organization – Our Own Write – has taken it upon itself to help authors who have found themselves without in-person events such as book fairs through its Virtual Book Fair!!! Below is Our Own Write’s story:

As any great movement does, Our Own Write started with one woman and a box of books.

In the midst of the current pandemic, many authors from the Twitter #WritingCommunity are experiencing cancelled book tours and fairs, and closed book stores and libraries. They can’t sell their books using traditional methods for the foreseeable future—so it’s time to get creative.

That’s where we met Rachel Churcher, YA author from the UK. Her biggest book event of the year was cancelled, and she wasn’t sure what to do with the boxes of her own books that were waiting to be hauled to the event. After chatting with Rachel and a few other authors, Our Own Write was born just days later.

Our #VirtualBookFair is a way to connect authors like Rachel with their readers, while giving everyone a chance to engage their global community and share their love of art.

These are strange times, and strange times call for creative re-thinkings of the norm.

Won’t you establish a new normal with us?

Isn’t that awesome? And you know what else is awesome?! I’m one of four writers who will be reading an excerpt of our work tomorrow on Twitter as a part of Our Own Write‘s #VirtualBookFair!!! So join me at 9:30 a.m. EST on Twitter on my account @jackiehwrites to watch me read an excerpt of Destination Wedding! And if you have read Destination Wedding, please suggest a passage that I should read!!! Comment or send me an email at jacqueline@afterthealtarcall.com.

Finally, I will be having a hectic 24 hours as I will be watching the Season 5 premiere of OWN’s Greenleaf which starts tonight at 9 p.m. and recapping the episode afterward!!! (Will I get any sleep tonight? Pray for me!!!) And if you want to find out behind-the-scenes details about Season 5 and the Greenleaf Spinoff, read:

OWN ‘Greenleaf’ Creator Craig Wright & Executive Producer Kriss Turner Towner Share How ‘Greenleaf’ Started, Secrets from Season 5 & the Spinoff & MORE (MY INTERVIEW)

if you haven’t already…

Any thoughts?

 

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OWN ‘Greenleaf’ Creator Craig Wright & Executive Producer Kriss Turner Towner Share How ‘Greenleaf’ Started, Secrets from Season 5 & the Spinoff & MORE (MY INTERVIEW)

Hello World,

I must say that I’m very much disturbed by recent events in my city of metro Atlanta, but that is why quality entertainment is more important than ever. Although I’m tempted to tune into 24-hour news stations 24 hours a day, I must detach myself periodically and de-stress somehow. Along with exercise, watching my favorite television shows is one of my easiest ways to de-stress, and as most of the readers of my blog know, OWN’s Greenleaf is at the top of my list. That’s why I feel so incredibly blessed that I was able to recently interview Craig Wright, the creator of Greenleaf AND Kriss Turner Towner, executive producer of Greenleaf AND the writer behind Something New, one of my favorite films of all time (more on that later). Yes, after four seasons of recaps (that took me about three hours to write apiece), I finally have some of the answers to some of the questions that I have asked myself and you as we got to know the Greenleafs over these last four years…

First of all, if you haven’t seen the latest trailer for Greenleaf Season 5, check that out below. In a word, RIVETING…And after you see what we can look forward to in Season 5, which starts on June 23 at 9 p.m. EST, read why we can expect what we expect to see as well as how Craig and Kriss got into television writing and more…Enjoy…AND…Share…

On Breaking Into Hollywood:

I read that prior to you breaking into Hollywood, you attended seminary and even worked as an associate pastor at a United Methodist church. Also, I read that while you were working as an associate minister, two Hollywood agents read a play that you had written Orange Flower Water. How did they come across your play?

Craig: I believe that my then theatre agent had once upon a time sent it to them. And that it had sat on a table or under a cup of coffee or whatever and not paid any attention to. And then one day, they decided to read it.  But at that point in my life, my sense of my life was I was going to be a minister for the rest of my life.

I read that the day after you graduated from the University of Washington in Seattle, you drove to Los Angeles where you worked at Nordstrom selling shoes (I worked in the shoe department of Macy’s in between career jobs) and wrote scripts at night? Is that true? That move took a lot of faith. Wouldn’t you agree?

Kriss: Very true. Absolutely. Fortunately, I had grandparents who lived outside of L.A. so I had a place to stay but my parents, you know. It wasn’t until I bought the house that they were like, okay, show business is gonna be alright.

Yeah, in college is when I really, really started to going to church. You know my family went to church, but college is when I really started to get into what God was going to be in my life.

On Something New & 42.4 Percent of Black Women Have Never Been Married:

Now, Something New is one of my favorite films of all time. Every time I see it on TV, I have to stop and watch it even though I’m usually doing something else. How did that come to be?

Kriss: Well, first of all, I got married for the first time at 50, and I wanted to be married. I wasn’t so sure that I wanted to have children. I don’t have children, but I do have a stepdaughter. And then a friend of mine, another writer Jacque Edmonds Cofer sent me this article. She had just gotten married, and she was in her forties. And it said that 42.4 percent (my debut novel is a retrospective look at that statistic) of black women had never been married. And I’m sitting in the Bernie Mac office, and I said, ‘That’s the title right there. 42.4 percent,’ and I just started writing. And that was another thing about Bernie Mac. If it was your episode, you would be on set, but even when it wasn’t your episode, you would go to set. So I would go to set and of course, eat free food. (Laughter) And then, after we were done sometimes at 10 or 11 o’clock, I would just come back to my office and write. It was just what so many people were feeling.

How quickly did you write that script?

I don’t know. I think the first draft probably took me about a month and then we sold it right away. I was very happy to have sold it at spec. And then once you get into development, that’s a whole other story. It probably took a year before it was actually greenlit.

So you would work during the day at Bernie Mac and then you would come home and work on Something New?

I would work at the office. I had all of my cosmetics, all of my facial wipes and everything there. I would wash my face and brush my teeth, and then I would go back into my office and write. I had a roommate at the time I think.

Why do you think Something New continues to resonate even now?

Because we’re still single, and it’s still hard. We’re the most educated people, black women, period. And it just gets tougher and tougher and tougher. We have to look at the past – like what did our daddy look like. (Laughter) I married a black man. He’s biracial. But I had to open myself up, and writing that movie was my way of doing that. I never really dated a white guy but I’m glad the movie continues to resonate with people.

On Meeting Oprah, Creating & Writing Greenleaf:

And how did you meet Oprah?

Craig: We met because she did a documentary called Belief which was great. And at that time, she was with or allied with WME, William Morris Endeavor, and she said, ‘Do you have anyone who has any experience with television but also a past in religion who might be able to watch this and give any notes about it?’ So I was invited to watch it with a small group of individuals and give my thoughts and that’s how we started talking. She said, ‘I hear you used to be a minister.’ And I said, ‘Yeah.’ She said, ‘Of a black church?’ And I said, ‘No, not at a black church.’ And we just started talking.

So how did you get involved in Greenleaf?

Kriss: It’s basically the same way as Craig where Oprah was like, ‘Who knows church?’ My agents knew that I was really in the church so I got a meeting with Craig. It’s so weird the first time I had met with Lionsgate, and I was like, ‘Honestly I had never written on an hour drama.’ And Craig, I don’t think I’ve ever told you this, but I was totally intimidated by the writing. And I said, ‘No.’ I was like, ‘No, I don’t think I can do this. I don’t know if I’m the one.’ And then I had another meeting, months later, with Craig, and he’s like, ‘C’mon’ and I did. And I’m really glad he did.

Why were intimidated since you have experience? Why didn’t you think you were right for this show?

Because I’ve worked on the show, I’m going to say for three seasons, and I still can’t write Lady Mae. I’m still fascinated.  I mean I’ll tell you. Yes, I have the title of executive producer but Craig is the showrunner. Every piece of every thing.  I don’t think anybody can write this show but Craig. We help him. We write stories. We write drafts. And then it goes through Craig’s magical hands. I’m still like, ‘Whoa, okay.’ We read the draft after it goes through Craig, and we’re just like, ‘Oh, oh, oh. Okay, Craig.’

On Writing About the Black Church:

Since you are white, where you intimidated at all about writing about a black church?

Craig: There are not words. They haven’t invented the words yet for how daunted I was by that idea. I was, I mean if Oprah had not been my prime conversation partner at the beginning of that journey, of course I never would have even considered it.

This show was inaugurated at a time when a white person doing this kind of work wasn’t quite as…it wasn’t quite as hot a topic then as it is now. This controversy, which is totally a well-earned controversy, has accelerated so much, you know, and so quickly, and rightfully so. I mean this would not have happened today. I would have said, ‘No,’ and Oprah wouldn’t have even thought to ask me. That’s my guess.

On the other hand, Oprah, as we all know, is a very, very special person. And while she’s obviously keenly aware of race and racial divisions and how they have affected our history and how they affect our present day, she also sees beyond race and I think she has conversations with whomever she wants to have them with, you know. Sometimes that makes people a little mad, actually.

So I was tremendously daunted by the idea, and so what I did was the day that she said she wanted to do that, that she wanted to do the show with me, I went directly across the street to a tattoo parlor, and I got these tattoos. I got these two arrows. That was me telling myself if I’m going to do this, there is only one way it’s going to work. It means I have to meet people, shake their hand with my right hand and write what tell me to write with my left hand, starting with Oprah. Just like, ‘Get out of the way, Craig, and try to transmit what Oprah is trying to say.’ I will stop talking in one second.

But this show is really Oprah’s in the sense that she was really celebrated as a young girl in the church because she was so good at speaking, you know. People identified her as a ‘talking child.’ However, when she got a little older and started asking questions about some things that she didn’t quite understand or think were fair, they said, ‘We don’t want to hear your questions anymore. Be quiet,’ right and so that was sort of the beginning decades earlier of this show because that left Oprah wanting to answer those questions.

Now, did you visit a lot of black churches?

Craig: In Los Angeles, I did. But then also, you know, I also immediately set out to hire, you know, black writers who were attending churches. Even more important than me, even as a visitor, I mean I can go there and ask questions but I don’t have the lived experience of having been raised in that church. So we immediately set out to hire a writing staff of people who could speak from experience. We also had a consultant who was in Cleveland. She worked very high up in a very large black church in Cleveland I believe, and she read every script and every outline. And her husband was a minister as well. So she would weigh in on everything and always tell us when she thought we might be tipping too far towards this and that in the interest of drama.

On Greenleaf Plots:

In Season 1 and Season 2, we learn that Lady Mae and her brother Mac McReady and the fact that she was molested by her father and that her brother was a molester and that he molested his niece and Lady Mae’s daughter Faith. Why was this an important storyline and will this storyline be mentioned at all in the final season?

Craig: I think in the broadest sense, Greenleaf was always about the power imbalance between women and men inside the structure of the church and you know, I always used to say, I got my start at Six Feet Under and I always used to say like Six Feet Under was a machine designed to kill Nate Fisher. Greenleaf was a machine designed to displace the Bishop or, at the very least, to raise Lady Mae up. And Grace is really the one who comes home to do it even though neither she nor Lady Mae would say that because they don’t see it that way.

But my point is that sexual abuse within the church and within families of all colors is a fact. And in this case, it’s kind of like the tip of the iceberg of the power dynamic that allowed us to get into the story in a way they that would have a lot of drama but also, like Russian boxes, would always relate to larger issues which is the power of men and the misuse of that power. So it was sort of a good story to use to start the series off even though inevitably it was going to broaden into larger issues like if Lady Mae is so amazing and she talks that way, why isn’t she running the church? Especially when with every passing episode, it becomes clearer that the bishop has made a lot of moral errors along the way.

Now, from Season 3, we learn that Lady Mae had an affair with Lionel, another pastor, which produced Grace. From the beginning, was it planned that Grace would not be Bishop’s child?

Craig: I will say this. Yes it was always on the table for a variety of reasons. From the very beginning of casting, it was acknowledged by everyone including Oprah that Merle’s skin tone didn’t quite match up with Keith’s. So right from the very beginning, the way that we dealt with that, sometimes jokingly, was like, ‘Maybe you know she’s from a different nest.’ And lo and behold… I don’t think there was never a cheap soap opera trope that we weren’t willing to pick up. If I could have gotten some identical twins on the show, I would have. (Laughter)

You mentioned that you haven’t been able to write Lady Mae. Why? And what characters are in your wheelhouse and why?

Kriss: Lady Mae has such a specific way of talking, the way she articulates things.  Simply put, I don’t think there is any writer other than Craig who truly captures her voice and spirit.  I remember Lady Mae saying in Season 3:  ‘Gigi is always off with that scapegrace, Darius.’  Scapegrace just isn’t in my wheelhouse. That’s all Craig.

Charity was my favorite character to write.  I know women like her. Her problems were relatable and I liked that she gave us some comic relief.

Thinking back to the fact you had some difficulties in dating, as you said you didn’t get married until you were 50 years old although wanted to do so, why do you think that Charity has so much bad luck when it comes to choosing men?

Kriss: For me, I had to shut it down.  I had to stop picking, saying yes to guys who not only looked good in person but on paper. I had to stop making excuses for bad behavior.  I had to stop overlooking things that I didn’t love… everything from table manners, to tardiness, to wondering why he never introduces me as his girlfriend.  (People always said I was too picky.  I say be picky.)  The Bible says to wait on the Lord.  That’s what I had to do.  — I think with Charity, she went for what looked good.  She went out with whoever asked her out. She didn’t ask the right questions, shut things down when SHE KNEW the brotha was suspect. We/Charity think we can change a man.  We’re so afraid that we’re going to lose ‘the one,’ that we’re going to be alone forever.  Afraid that God doesn’t have anyone better. I think too, with being a single mother (which I was not) Charity thought her pickings were slim, so she compromised.. settled…  And I speak against ALL OF THAT!

On the Return of Beloved Characters:

Now at the end of Season 4, Kerissa and Jacob are not in a good place to say the least but I saw Tasha Skanks in the trailer for Season 5. Could Tasha Skanks and Jacob Greenleaf be getting together at long last?

Craig: Well, I’ll just throw that back at you. Do you believe that Tasha is the right lady for Jacob?

Me: I’ve never liked Kerissa from the very beginning. Well, I can’t say that I never liked her. I just don’t like her for him. They just never have seemed to come together. And it seemed like she wanted to be a Lady Mae knockoff, and she just kind of chose someone that would help fulfill that. And I think she’s grown to love him, but I don’t think she necessarily loves him in the way that Tasha feels toward Jacob. And with Jacob, I feel like she’s like a mothering person to him. I’m not sure if he loves her either. I never quite saw them together.

Craig: I think for Jacob, he’s got the stern mom with Kerissa and Tasha is over there like the bad girl.  I guess I would like to think that there’s a middle way, that there is someone waiting for Jacob who is right in the middle. Maybe he will meet her this season.

Now if Tasha Skanks is going to make an appearance, is Basie Skanks?

Craig: I don’t think I can answer that without ruining the storyline.

Will Mavis make an appearance or is she just gone?

Craig: The Greenleaf Saga, not the series, could never really end without Mavis making a reappearance.

On Season 5:

You said before that Lady Mae had all of the qualities of what would make a good pastor, but she never had the opportunity. With Harmony & Hope, and with all that they’re doing, maybe you won’t be able to tell me, but what’s going to happen to that all of that drive and ambition that she has to be a pastor?

Craig: Lady May will never and should never stop looking for what to do with her call, and I can say that by the end of Season 5, she finds it.

In Season 4, there was a big emphasis on creating a multicultural church through Harmony & Hope Ministries to break down the “walls of racism.” While the goal of a multicultural church may be a good one, the way Bob Whitmore and Phil DeMars are going about these plans doesn’t look good. What are you trying to say about multicultural churches and how they are being achieved, if anything?

Craig: We’re saying that multiculturalism or diversity of any kind works best when it’s driven by and managed by the minority or minorities who’ve been ‘targeted for assimilation,’ as it were. To put it more simply, it’s not the moral duty of the Black church to fit into the white church’s vision of diversity so that white people can feel spiritually enriched. And there is no single Black church anyway. It’s a case by case situation, and you always have to be looking out for the legacy of those with the most to lose, in terms of uniqueness, by joining the homogenized flock. It’s a delicate business, enforcing or even just marketing multiculturalism, and you always have to be asking, ‘Why and for whom are we doing this?’

So you have these tattoos to remind yourself of these twin goals that you have for the show. Do you have you feel like you achieved your goals since the end of the show is coming up?

Craig: Do I think I achieved the goal of the show? I think we did. If the goal was to start a conversation about the black church and bring that conversation, you know, to a wider audience and basically give the audience the chance to ask all the questions about their churches that Oprah had wanted to ask 30 years ago and let that conversation grow in whatever direction it wants to go, I would say we achieved that goal. The conversation is not over. We have not solved the problems of the world. But we got to start a lot of conversations about a lot of stuff. And to me, the most exciting thing is starting a lot of conversations about the power of women in the church and the role of women in the church and what they’re trying to see in the structure of the church can be and could be, moving forward. So that they’re not just holding up everything from underneath and behind and maybe even more out front. That’s, I think, a great thing that we started to look at.

What do you think Kriss? Did we achieve the goals?

Kriss: I was going to say your fans certainly do think so. I definitely think we achieved those goals, but there’s more.

Craig: There is more to say.

On the Spinoff:

Craig: Well, I can tell you that if Kriss Turner Towner isn’t busy directing Something New 2, that she will definitely be involved with it, if she isn’t too busy. (Laughter) I can tell you that. I can tell you that Oprah and I. You know, Greenleaf was sort of spawned during a lot of conversations with Oprah. She and I spent a lot of time walking around her various beautiful places that she lives and talking about it. And we haven’t had a chance to do that yet because of the quarantine so I expect that the real form of that show is going to take shape once this quarantine is over in the middle of June. So I can go up to Montecito and hang out with her. So it’s very very early.

But what I do know about it is the long-term trajectory of Greenleaf is always about the rise of the women. That doesn’t mean that Jacob doesn’t have a place on that show. I love Lamman so much. But the story is going to be about the continuing rise of all of the women in the family and them facing the struggle that the men faced 35 to 40 years ago. So it’s like okay, it’s your problem. Now what are you going to do? And most importantly, how are you going to treat each other, ladies, when these opportunities for power are now in front of you.

Again, if you need to refresh yourself about what happened on the last episode in November before this final season kicks off, click HERE.  And if you would like to keep up with OWN’s “Greenleaf,” and my recaps once Season 5 starts, please click on this link to subscribe to my blog 🙂!

Craig Wright is an award-winning playwright whose plays include Lady, Grace, Orange Flower Water and more. He is a recipient of fellowships from the McKnight Foundation, the Jerome Foundation, and the National Endowment for the Arts.  Craig served as a writer on HBO’s Six Feet Under, for which he was nominated for an Emmy, in addition to other series such as Lost, Brothers & Sisters, and The United States of Tara. He created and executive-produced Dirty Sexy Money for ABC, Underemployed for MTV, and was an executive producer of Tyrant on FX and Rush on USA.  More recently, Craig created and executive-produced Greenleaf for OWN, and, having just completed the planned five-year run of Greenleaf, is about to launch a Greenleaf spinoff for that same network.

Kriss Turner Towner is a writer and producer for television and film. She currently has a comedy in development with the FOX network and is an executive producer on OWN’s award-winning hit drama Greenleaf.  Her television and film credits also include Amazon’s The Romanoffs, Showtime’s Black Monday, as well as The Bernie Mac Show, Everybody Hates Chris, and Living Single. Kriss has been recognized for excellence in writing by the Peabody Awards, The Humanitas Prize, and with several NAACP Image Awards. Her first feature film, Something New, won a Black Filmmakers Award for Outstanding Achievement in Screenwriting. Born in Hawaii and raised in Los Angeles, Kriss now lives in Hollywood, California, with her husband, daughter, and three dogs.

Any thoughts?